Boat Fault Finding - Marine Engine Problems

I assume you must mean injectors - unless Listers have started making petrol engines :-) I have to assume that you are not very well up on diesels, so you might want to have a look at www.reading-college.ac.uk/marine .

As you have had kitchen paper around the injectors, what colour was the "liquid"?

Pink = diesel (unless you are burning DERV as opposed to gasoil, but at twice the price I doubt it. In any case you would be able to smell the diesel on the paper.

Creamy yellow through to black = lube oil. This is what think you have, and I suspect it is a leaking rocker cover gasket. This is the cover or covers right at the top of the engine, I think the Canal Star range has a single cover, nearly the full length of the engine. You should check the hold down bolts/nuts just to be sure it has not worked loose, otherwise its a new gasket and lots of care when refitting it.

Injectors can "blow" a little, especially if they were replaced without new sealing washers, or were not correctly tightened. This would cause just dirty, browney looking liquid to collect around them, but you would see them blowing small bubbles when running. I doubt this is the problem.

Just make sure that the bilge and engine tray are empty, the propshaft & engine pulleys can throw bilge water into all sorts of odd places.

The other faint possibility, especially if its as cruiser or semi-trad stern, is condensation dripping off the engine hatch, but its a bit late/early in the year for that.

I supect it a problem with the rocker cover, but as an added precaution, make sure that the crank case breather system (not
sure of the design on your engine) is not blocked, so the gasses leaking past the pistons are pressurising the engine and forcing oil out of the weakest joint.

back to questions

I have no wish to insult you, but are you sure you have the stop control fully in and the fuel tap turned on. I suppose the tap must be on because you say you managed to bleed the system.

I also have a feeling that the system is not fully bled. Also, are the glow plugs all working and does the exhaust smoke - if it does you are getting some fuel into the cylinders.

Assuming (because you bled the system) that the lift pump, filter(s), and pipe work are air tight and serviceable.

Undo the pipe that runs from the filter to the end of the injector pump furthest away from the engine. Spin the engine on the starter. If plenty of fuel spews out of the pipe we can assume the system is fine up to there.

I have had problems bleed the 1.5s injector pump, so replace that pipe and undo the one on the other end of the injector pump, spin the engine over again and make sure fuel again pours out.

If both the above are OK I rather suspect the governor may have stuck. This is in the top of the "turret" on the pump, but I would advise that it needs to go to a specialist.

The pump is easy to remove, refit, and time. Look at one of the upper "corners" on the flange that holds the pump to the block. One of them has a a line scribed on it and a pointer on the engine block. Do not alter the pointer without the special "setting tool". When the pump come back it should have a line scribed on the flange for realigning with the pointer.

If you do decide to remove the injector pump, make sure the drive that you will see down the hole, has minimal rotary slackness, and actually turns when the engine spins over. There is an oil jet and strainer, under bolt heads, on the opposite side of the engine and when these block I have had the pump drive gears wear.

FWIW - another boater has told me that when their engine became erratic a new lift pump cleared the problem, however I can not see why this should be the case unless it was sucking air through the top.

back to questions

As far as the injectors are concerned, I would refit the pipes and screw the hold down nuts back on so the stud is level with the top of the nut. Then stand well clear, operate the heaters as normal and stsrt the engine. There is a good chance that the pressure - either on cranking, or when the engine fires - will "blow" the injectors free.

If that fails I have always been able to shift them with what is known as a pry or roll bar between the head and the underside of the injector flange. A pry bar is a special lever bar with a small "shoe" at 90 degrees to the bar.

You can get/make pullers to fit the thread for the leak off pipe, but I think it is too easy to damage the thread. You could make up a puller with an old injector cap (how you would get one is anyones guess), but I am sure either method above would work.

Remember to change both the copper washer and - as long as you can remove it - the heat shield from below the injector tip (Calcutt can supply). Ignore the heat shield if you can not hook it out.

As far as the revving is concerned, I would expect it would most likely be a sticky hydraulic governor valve in the injector pump,. I would expect a lift pump to just fail to supply above a certain flow rate.

Its easy to change the injector pump on the 1.5. Just make sure the pointer on the triangular mounting block is aligned with a line scribed on the pump flange (its held in place by two little screws), remove all pipes, cables, and fixings, and pull the pump out. You might as well get the pump checked along with the injectors. When you fit the pump just align the line scribed on the pump flange with the pointer. Remember to tell the injector specialist that it is off a marine version of the engine, whatever the pump number may say.

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Our "advice service" is offered as part of the marketing strategy for our "Boater's Courses". May I suggest you appear to be prime candidates for the Maintenance course. If you want details email your snail mail address for the 2003/04 priority info when it is ready.

Your boat should have a skin tank. That is a thin tank welded on the inside of the hull on the side of the rear swim (usually), a few builders fit it to the bottom plate, under the engine. This tank should have two hoses running to/from it, about 1 1/2 inches or so in diameter. The lower of these usually runs back to the waterpump with hot water running from the engine to the top of the tank for cooling.

It is possible that someone has converted the engine for direct cooling (look on www.reading-college.ac.uk/marine  under course notes), but that would be such bad practice on a modern engine that I think we can discount it.

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I suspect you also have central heating or a stove with a back boiler for your hot water as well as an engine heated, twin coil, calorifier. If this is the case, after running for a while the water in the calorifer gets hot enough - from the engine coolant - to heat the water in the stove/central heating coil so it thermosiphons around the system, thus your radiator gets warm at time.

If the water was not circulating in the engine would boil very quickly. You do not mention this, so we can assume you have a skin tank, and its working.

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New gaskets etc. Its being running for two hours but I've got engine oil dripping out of the exhaust (about 30ml in 2 hours). The only other relevant detail is that the engine is on a lean of about 25 deg due to the canal being empty. The oil has pooled over the valve stems to about 10 mm.

Could the oil being get down the valve stems to this extent which will sort it self out when the canal fills or could it be a crack in the cylinder head ?. The exhaust is smokey but not clouds of white oily smoke.

This is nearly impossible to diagnose by remote control, but a few pointers.

Oil causes blue smoke, not white, white is either steam or unburnt fuel.

Did you leave a carbon "ring" around the piston crown, if not you might have removed the carbon "seal" that has stopped the oil that had got past worn rings & bores from getting into the combustion chamber?

Did you check the wear between the valve guides and stems?

Did you fit new valve stem oil seals? - this is my no. 1 suspect.

I have never heard of a 1.5 cracking its head into the oil gallery, but there is always a first time.

I do not think the angle has much to do with it because the EA van used this engine at about 30 degrees of incline, however this might be the cause if it is leaning towards the valve side of the head, this might allow oil to build up in the rocker cover, above the level of the guide, but I feel this is a very long shot (especially with new stem seals).

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Hi Tony. I have a volvo penta 1985 year. I have a ignition problem. I can not crank the motor with the ignition. I have a full charge on battery, I have power going to the ignition. I have checked all wires and connectors. The starter relay works, neutral switch checks out ok. I have no power going to the starter from the starter wire. Please help , Jim

Thanks Jim, lets see what we can do, but I have to assume it is wired in a fairly standard way. As you say "ignition problem" and do not specify any engine details I must assume it is a petrol unit.

I also assume that you have turned the engine by hand, at this time of year, engines are found that have been left with an exhaust valve open to wet exhausts. This results in corrosion in a bore seizing it up.

You must consider two circuits here, a low current circuit Battery - ign.sw. - "neutral switch" - starter solenoid. The solenoid is mounted remotely from the engine and normally has three or four wires connected to it. Two big starter wires and two thin ones. One thin one comes from the ignition switch and the other (which might be connected to a mounting screw) is the negative, the neutral switch might be connected in this line instead of the live.

Is this what you call the starter relay? If the top of the solenoid has another wire it could be for a ballasted ignition system.

If this clicks when you turn the key to the start position you know the "thin" circuit is working, if not you need to find out why. Make sure you get "voltage" at one of the thin wires every time you turn the key to start.

The other circuit is the thick wires from Battery - starter solenoid -starter motor. If the solenoid is clicking, simply bridge the two connections for the big wires on the solenoid with something metal, big & old (it is likely to get a bit burnt). The starter should turn, if it does the solenoid requires renewing (as long as it is mounted on wood an automotive one will do, but connect the - wire to the case).

If the starter does not turn and you are sure the battery is OK, then inspect and clean each connection on the big wires, I suspect either a battery terminal is dirty (probably the negative one) so clean them back to shiny metal and dress with Vaseline, or one of the terminal crimps has come loose. In this case heat it up several time with a blow lamp and dip in plumbers active flux (this is very, very bad practice, but it about the only thing that will clean an oil/dirt soaked terminal) and then apply multi-core solder to the crimp. Make sure you wash the joint very well to remove the flux.

If all the above are OK, then I am afraid the starter needs taking to an autoelectrical specialist for further investigation.

The diesel system is similar, except the solenoid is mounted on the starter motor and only has one wire going to it. All the above apply.

If you have an MD engine with a dynostart then the control box is more complicated, but bridging the two large wires on it should get the dynostart turning, if not, check the wires and connection as above etc.

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Services I have already done:
replaced fuel tank and fuel
checked exhaust elbow (even ran engine with elbow disconnected)
had injector and pump rebuilt
cleaned bottom and prop
air intake looks clean
fuel filter and racor filter has been replaced (both looked very clean)

Should I check or replace any of these ???
fuel lift pump
all bleeding washers that could introduce air
valve adjustment
injection timing
fuel rod adjustment
exhaust manifold carbon blockage

The problem appeared very suddenly so I don't think that the prop pitch can be the problem. Thanks for any pointers, Daniel

These symptoms are typical of either a "rich mixture" or the engine overloading. Overloading is when something (usually the prop - but probably not in your case) preventing the engine revving to the speed required for the fuel delivered. Typically a fouled prop, but not in your case. Think
about partially seized propshaft (not likely), very badly misaligned engine/shaft, overtight stern gland, partially seized gearbox (again unlikely unless it has run short of oil).

The too rich mixture should not occur on most diesels, but would if anything partially blocked the air intake tract - this would be my first area of investigation. You should try it with the engine hatches open, if the problem clears you need engine room ventilation.

After that one should look at injector pump settings and injectors for spray pattern (again yours should be correct).

A partially blocked exhaust could cause burn gasses to be trapped in the cylinder, preventing the engine drawing more air in, so I would also check the exhaust hose for delamination (especially if you have had a raw water failure). Try revving the engine with the exhaust disconnected - it will be noisy, messy & wet - but it will show if the problem is in the exhaust. It could be a problem in the exhaust manifold, but I would only look at this as a last resort.

back to questions

Which way does the water flow? What does it do? Looking at other sites I think the part is:
Manifold/header tank/heat exchanger
Bowman part no: BL570 (mine's green coloured and sited next to the top of the engine block, if that helps?)

I really need to know exactly why you think the engine is overheating - i.e. what actually happens, what comes out of the heat exchanger etc. I assume you have made sure the propeller is not fouled.

The missing thermostat bothers me, this is often removed to try to hide a more serious fault.

I am also not 100% sure you actually have a heatexchanger, because many marinisers use the heatexchanger manifold, without the core, on tank cooled units, they look just the same, until you
check the pipework. If it is tank cooled with a wet exhaust there are other considerations.

As far as how it works, you will find a diagram and explanation of an oil cooler in the Course Notes section of www.reading-college.ac.uk/marine . The heat exchanger works in exactly the same way, except where the diagram shows oil, the heat exchanger has the engine coolant around it, plus a filler, like an older car's radiator cap. Follow the service procedure outlined in the notes - remove the rubber endcaps and make sure the tubes are clean - a bit of brass brazing rod makes a good "push through".

The heatexchanger/exhaust manifold should be kept topped up to within about 1/2 of the bottom of the filler neck, although, if you have a calorifier some may be expelled as the engine heats up. I would advise checking this level every morning, before starting. It should be filled with a 50% antifreeze mixture, but do not do this until you get the overheating sorted out.

Your engine should have two water pumps on it. One is the engine water pump, that was fitted when the van factory built the engine. This is driven by the alternator pulley, and is in the centre, front of the engine, above the crankshaft pulley (the big one at the bottom). Make sure your alternator drivebelt is in good condition and at the correct tension. Feel underneath, behind the pulley (with engine stationary and keys in your pocket). If you get wet rust on your finger, this pump is leaking and needs replacing.

The other is a brass Jabsco (rubber impeller) type pump, driven by a separate belt, direct from an extra pulley on the crankshaft. The impeller on this pump (as your engine is a heat exchanger unit) should be about 1inch deep. If it is about half an inch deep you have a tank/keel cooled raw water pump fitted. This will not pass sufficient water to cool the engine. Make sure the impeller (about 6 small screws to remove the endplate - new gasket required) the endplate, the wearplate inside the pump and cam are not worn (look in the cooling section on the website above).

I know you say water is coming out of the exhaust - but is it enough? The above should solve a lack of raw water, providing the raw water inlet & pipes leading to the pump are not blocked. (more diagrams on website).

If the above does not identify a fault, I fear we are starting to talk big money. Try to persuade a local garage to lend you their cooling system pressure test equipment, or hire it from someone like hire services. Use this to pressurized the system to about 13 to 15 psi and check for leaks. The release the pressure & refit the kit, with the coolant topped up as above. Run the engine, revving it, and putting it under load. If the pressure gauge rises fairly quickly you have a leaking head gasket or cracked head/cylinder bore. This can be confirmed with a special solution from a garage or local motor factors.

Any half decent marine engineer should have the kit, but that will cost you, I am afraid.

Have you thought about taking one of our courses, 12 hours for 50 quid or 40 quid if you are a member of certain associations - see the website.

With no engine mounted housing in which to fit a thermostat, I wondered if you could tell me if it is possible to source an 'in-line' thermostat of some sort, which would allow me to divert water to the cooling curcuit once it reaches a suitable temperature. In addition, I wondered if you might advise me as to how hot the thermostat should be - ie what rough temperature this sort of engine should run at. It's obviously quite an agricultural unit, so I presume accuracy isn't imperative, but an idea of its maximum water temperature would be handy.

I hope you can help - as since all the importers of these engines seem to have long since vanished I am at somewhat of a loss!

This sounds exactly like a typical industrial unit of pre-war design to me, and should operate happily, as it is, for many years. If you are really worrying about efficiency the you need a modern
"wizbang" engine that will die long before your Kingfisher. I suppose you might have to change your engine oil more frequently than on a modern unit because it runs so cool, but, in my view, that is a small price to pay for such a low stressed unit.

Direct cooled engines - those that draw raw water from outside and having cooled the engine, spits it out again - should not run at much more that about 60 - 70 degrees, because at higher temperatures the salt/lime "furs" up the inside of the engine, causing overheating damage.

Sorry to get technical, but on closed cooling systems, like yours, there is a problem called "localised boiling" this is where things like exhaust valve seats get far hotter that the other parts of the engine and cause the water to boil around them - the rest of the water is cooler. This causes the temperature gauge (if fitted) to show normal, while water is being forced out of the engine until it really does overheat and boil. This is "cured" by fitting a pressure cap and pressurising the system to raise the boiling point. How prone each engine is to localised boiling depends upon design (I doubt the Kingfisher will suffer from this). Many marinised units do away with the pressure cap, and must therefore have the running temperature lowered. I would expect these to use something like a 75 to 80 degree thermostat or lower. Engines that are not prone to localised boiling and pressurise systems would use something between about 82 and 92 degree thermostats.

Remember, any problems will come when you are on full power for a time. The last thing you want if caught on a river navigation (and some canals) to be trying to escape from a weir pull, only to find your engine boils.

Any engine should be quiet safe, as long as no part of the coolant is boiling, so the maximum temperature on a unit not prone to localised boiling would be about 98 degrees. My engine is fitted with a 70 degree thermostat and the calorifer gets uncomfortably hot.

Now to answer the part about getting a thermostat. Some French cars (Renault I know, and I suspect Peugot) used a thermostat that was fitted into the engine outlet hose and held in place by a
hoseclip. You might have to order one from a dealer - and pay the price. (Ask for a Renault 4 or early Renault 5)

By using an assortment of pieces of hose and large yorkshire plumbing fittings it should be easy to rig up a thermostat, in the main outlet hose, close to the engine, with a T outlet (about 15mm) between the thermostat and the engine. This should have a piece of 1/2" (ish) hose from the new T to the higher calorifier "coil" connection. Another piece of similar hose runs from the calorifier lower "coil" connection to a T in the main return hose, just before it enters the engine or water pump.

At present she has an Isuzu 3KR1 or 3KC1 which is noisy, smoky and vibrates a lot. She is coupled to a Newage PRM type gearbox with a Vetus uniflex 16 coupling. We have decided that the Isuzu has got to go. Ideally we want a nice quiet, vibration-free and absolutely reliable source of propulsion.

Would it be possible for you to answer a few questions for me to help in my task?

1. I have sourced an old BMC diesel 2.5l which was running when it was removed from the London taxi. Is this a good starting point or are there much better things available nowadays?

I like the BMC engines, being simple and robust. It will not be the quietest or the smoothest, but on flexible mounts and a truly flexible drive coupling like an Aquaflex or a LONG Centaflex, it should be far better than your previous engine.

2. Assuming the BMC is suitable, I would strip it down and rebuild it. Would it all need dynamically balancing?

No - just rebuild like the vehicle engine it is. Ideally the Flywheel should either be replaced with a heavier one, or a heavy ring bolted to the clutch" face. This gives better and smoother low speed "pulling", but I have seen little evidence of this practice in recent years - sourcing the items would be the problem.

3. What bits would I need to marinise it and from whom should I purchase them?

A marine manifold and suitable flywheel housing. The housing might also form the rear feet. Front feet might also have to be fabricated. I suggest you look in boat magazines, but Calcutt boats would be a good first contact.

4. Could you recommend a publication to assist me in this task?

No - overhauling engines comes in the last year of a three year traineeship. Try to get the full, automotive, workshop manual (try Calcutt or a LDV dealer). After the overhaul, bolting the marine bits on is no problem.

If you have not already found it, www.reading-college.ac.uk/marine  has a lot of useful stuff on it (under course notes). This may help with the cooling system, wiring etc.

I really need to know more - direct cooled, heat exchanger cooled, or keel/skin tank cooled. I then need to know if it has a wet or dry exhaust system.

Is this your first boat & you only bought it this summer?

If so, it might just be that as the weather gets colder the wet exhaust (if it has one) is showing its steam more, this also applies to dry exhausts - look at your car, first thing on a winter morning.

If it has a wet exhaust - first assume its steam - that's cheaper & easier to fix.

Blocked or partially blocked sea inlet, gearbox oil cooler/heat exchanger tubes, faulty/worn raw water (jabsco pump) - you need to know what a good one should look like so you can compare with yours, blocked/kinked raw water hoses, blocked/delaminating exhaust hose.

How many of these you have, and how you go about checking them depends on each individual boat.

If the exhaust is expelling as much water as other 1.5s using a similar cooling system then the above is unlikely to be the cause.

Next consider it might be smoke, I also assume no-one has been messing about with the injector pump timing, because wrong timing can cause white smoke - do not adjust it, if it has not been moved when the smoke appeared.

If the smoke clears after it has run for a while suspect one or more faulty heater/glow plugs.

If it does not clear, get the injectors tested, and whilst they are out get a compression test done, just to verify it is not a head gasket/crack causing the problem.

However ... my exhaust has just given up the ghost, although my patchwork is holding at the mo, it is only a matter of time ... can
 you tell me what exhaust I need? This must be the only thing not mentioned on your website! Or maybe I just couldn't find it.

You are right, there is no exhaust information on the site. Basically the silencer should be matched to the noise characteristics of the engine at design time. This will give the maximum silencing with minimum back pressure. If you look at a car exhaust you will see that there is usually two or more "silencers", however in the marine trade the volumes sold make individual design uneconomic.

As your engine is a BMC, I would phone Calcutt Boats (or ARS) and ask about their price, otherwise ask a chandlers for a silencer for a 1500cc engine (I have seen them at Midland Chandlers, Braunston).

If you want a "cheap" way out, and if you have a dry exhaust (most narrow boats do), and if you are adept at joining things, and if you have space, you could also try getting a newish exhaust off a scrap 1.6 litre car and using that. It should be fine, but would have a much shorter life because of the thickness of metal used.